Critique the statement, "Mysticism teaches that man can have a relationship with God that does not require the organization nor government of the church."
For me, a person can have a relationship with God that does not require any organization nor government of the church because a relationship with God is personal. The organization and the church are there to help a person as he grows in his relationship with God but when it comes to personal, a person can call the name of the Lord especially when situation comes in life that the last thing that comes into his mind is to call on God. That particular moment, God is speaking to him and wants that person to rely on God the situation he has into because only He can help us in our trials and problems in life. By calling on God, a person will be able to realize that God is the source of everything and the Helper in times of trouble. Surely, God uses situations and events in life that would lead a person to come into his senses to call on God for help. From that moment, a person can have a personal relationship with God by always calling Him whenever that person asks or need something because he knows that God would answer him, if not all. The organization and the church also is a big help to a person when he wants to be involve in the ministry for God. It helps him grow more deeply in his relationship to God by teaching and training that person the techniques and ways. These two also are used by God to help a person in counseling and advice to strengthen the life of a person and to become more mature for God. By having a personal relationship with God also means that a person is living the way God wants him to be. Following the commands of God is a perfect example of showing and telling to other people, “I believe in God”.
personal relationship to God is an interaction between of man to God. it was destroyed because of sin, thus not in man can make it restore again. so, God initiating it, one can have the relationship again back to God. i like the idea presented by the author of this statements.
Amen to this. I agree to the idea that the church are there to help strengthen our relationship to God. The relationship itself is a personal one. It one's person decision in a particular event in his life that he choose to have a relationship to God.
Yes, i strongly agree to this. That God is the cause for a man to have relationship with Him and the church really helps in assisting their spiritual growth as they walk in their faith. It is one of its purposes, to build up and strengthen those who have faith in Christ.
Our relationship to God is personal, its true! But as we go on with our relationship and battle in life with Him we also need someone to lean on to, partners,and companions who can give us help and follow-ups. We also need people to redirect us whenever we fail keep or hold to something we valued the most especially our relationship to God. That is why we really need to give value to the church organizations and leaders.
This statement is somewhat an irony because it talks about having a relationship with God without the instrument of God. We are in the period of church age. The church has been given the great commission to disciple all nations with the completed Word of God as the sole authority for belif and conduct. This means the church is now the channel of God’s blessing of salvation that is the start of a relationship with God (Rom.5:1). In other words, the church bears the good news of Christ. A church can a group of believers or a single believer and both description is part of the church organization. And so, people who are lost need to hear the message of salvation from the people who have the Word of God and experience it (Rom. 14:14-15). But of course, God’s way is revealed in the Bible, which has opened the heart the hearts of many to accept the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. One thing is clear though, that no one can have a relationship with God w/o the Bible and Jesus Christ.
yes, i also believe that kui, but have you ever in mind that God is also communicating without human instrument---the Holy Spirit, most of all Jesus Heb 4:14-16?
Let us not forget that man can have a relationship with God through special revelation and that means the Written Word and Incarnate Word. That is my point Ming :).... Mystics had different way in mind when they say that man can have a relationship with God w/o the church. There are not talking about the Bible and for that they are wrong.
Relationship to God is not based on human effort but rather based on what Jesus has done for us; upon our faith to Jesus we can have relationship with God, describe as personal. It’s a kind of relationship between a person and God alone, not based on the legality imposed by the organization and governance of the church such as the sacraments but rather of faith. I don’t mean to say that Godly commanded style of organization and governance such as offices (pastor and deacon) and ordinances (baptism and the Lord’s Supper) is to disregard. However the force execution for merit to relationship to God of these organization and governance as a requirement for a person is not a means to relationship to God. It is man’s willingness as he responses positively to the grace of God through the person of Christ that give him the restoration of relationship to God because of what Christ has done has he paid our sins on the cross.
yes i agree with you plakz, human cannot understand the Lord if it is not God's willing to let him know his power and love. it is God's effort that we can know the truth and open our mind in order that we will be save. by believing the lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:14-16 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through heavens, Jesus the Son of God. For we do not have the a high priest who is not unable to sympathize with our weakness, but the one who was tempted in every way—yet without sin . Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
This verse tells that we can always come to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore, there is no need for other human mediator to be in the presence of God or in the relationship with God.However, in this perfect world God revealed His being order that man may experience peace. If there is no organization there would be a great chaos in the entire world. This organization is to unite people to people not people with God. Of course, Jesus is not out of the picture, He is enough---it’s given. But what I mean is that organization or government is the human solution guided by God’s wisdom that in humility we avoid competition over an authority. There must be an ordained authorized person who will take lead of everybody. I don’t think God will be glad to see His people fighting with each other. It is not worshiping Him anymore. Thus, in the beginning he gave Moses as the leader of Israelite even though God was there. It is because He knew that it was necessary, not that He wasn't enough but people were yet foolish to figure it out.
For me, I believe that a relationship with God is a personal matter. It is between you and God. it does not require the organization nor the government of the church. it is your decision to have God. The church may introduce and strengthen your relationship of God but it is personal. The church has no control on your relationship to God but they can help you on strengthen your relationship with Him. If i were to illustrate, Its just like a boy courting a girl. If the boy wanted to have a personal relationship with the girl, he will call on to the girl. He will not call his friends or an organization just to have a personal relationship with her. He will personally court the girl so that he will have a personal relationship. The friends and the group will be just there to help you to strengthen your relationship.
yes, I agree with you Nolan. having a personal relationship with God is a personal decision and the church also has a specific role in the life of someone who have a personal relationship with God. The church is there to help strengthen, uphold and encourage a believer. Going to a particular church doesn't make a person Christian but the church can help in the spiritual growth of a person after he received Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior.
Having a personal relationship with God is an individual experience. To belong to a particular church can't make a person be connected to God or have a personal relationship with Him. God has provided only one way for a person to be saved and that is by having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and salvation is only by grace through faith alone. On other hand, the church is there to help the person in his spiritual growth and for continuous guidance and accountabilty.
You're right Soy because when it comes to relationship with God, we need to go back to the fundamentals of faith which is by Jesus Christ. It's very deceptive idea that man can have a relationship with God through secret wisdom or God's revelation by the Mystics because He has given us His divine revelation, which teaches us the right doctrine.
Indeed there is no other way for a person to have a personal relationship with God aside form believing in the Lord JEsus Christ. Any organization or church is only God's instrument to nurture His people. Even without being involve in a church, a person can still experience being in a relationship with God.
Relationship between God and man was made possible through Jesus Christ. He is the reason why the relationship was restored. Without Him the relationship to God is impossible. Meaning, apart from Jesus Christ there will be no restoration of relationship. For mystics they believe that, “Man can have a relationship with God that does not require the organization nor government of the church.” There are three things that I wanted to say about their statement. First, Man cannot have his relationship back with his own strength. No matter how much a person tries to restore himself to God he will always end up being failure. Why? Because Man is deprave. He is dead. The bible talks about it in Ephesians 2:1, “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins ” and Romans 3:10-12, “as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.” All human fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Second, Man cannot have his relation without Christ as a requirement for the sin. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all. Even without the organization and the government of the Church cannot make him have his relationship back to Christ. It is by Christ we can have the restoration of the relationship. The organization and the church are there to help a person not as means for salvation. It is their to strengthen the believer as well as to help him grow. Lastly, Man can have his relationship be restored when He accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved. There is only one God, and Christ Jesus is the only one who can bring us to God (1 Timothy 2:5). Even in his own land and among his own people, the Jews, he was not accepted. Only a few would welcome and receive him. But to all who received him, he gave the right to become children of God. All they needed to do was to trust him to save them. All those who believe this are reborn!—not a physical rebirth resulting from human passion or plan—but from the will of God. There is no other way to have our relationship being restored.
Amen to that ptr alvin that relationship to God was made possible of what Jesus had done on the cross. That is to say a person can only have a personal relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ. By accepting Christ in his life, a relationship with Him comes immediately as one desires earnestly to long for a relationship with God each and everyday.
in my own opinion, relationship with God does not require any organization or government of the church because relationship with God is personal. This means that God calls men to have a relationship with Him and it depends to man if he will respond positively or not. it dpends to a man if he will receive and believe the grace of God. Just like Abraham, he was able to make a relationship with God when he believe and obey Him. Moses able to know God when He appeared in a bush. David became a great king and known to be the "man after God's own heart" because of his very distnct and intimate relationship with God. Paul became a great apostle to the Gentles because God revealed Himself to him. These are all because of God and not by church's organization and government. It is God whom sent Jesus Christ in the world so that man will have a Savior and relationship with Him and not the church's organization and government. It is all alone because of God.
To have a relationship with God has only one requirement,and that is for a person to put his faith in Jesus, the Son of God; nothing more, nothing less. The church and any organizations will not contribute to a person for him to have a relationship with God. It's only between the person himself and God. Therefore even without a church, a person can still experience or have an intimate relationship with God. It's not really that necessary but still it is important that a person has a church or an organization if he believes in God because those will what would help the person to grow in God. Each person's goal is to be Christlike and one way of achieving that goal is to be in a group of people who can encourage and help you grow in your spiritual walk with God. God uses people for his people to be come the person that He wants them to be. Again, church or any organization is not a requirement to have a personal relationship with God, but it is important.
It is really true that a person who already have relationship with God should grow in his or her spiritual life and that where church comes in. That's why mystecism belief about this is partly true but then their point that church is unnecessary is not true because church is neccesary as we grow in the Lord.
Relationship to God is an individual duty and it does not necessarily require the intervention of another person or other people. It is between a person and God. God is the One who actually directs one person's life and on one else. But this does not mean the church organization is of no use and not important anymore. Its ( church organization or church leaders ) are still very important because they have a very important task to perform in the church. They are those people who formulate and regulate the church's rules and standards and even set goals of the church. That is why even our relationship to God is intimate and our very personal encounter with God we cannot deny the importance of church organization.We are actually very exposed to this in our respective churches.
yes! the church are just a channel for any person who have relationship with God to Grow more deeper in the knowledge of Him. it is a way for acquainting with fellow believers that would lift up and help the person in the same faith.
Jesus said " I am the way...to the Father" (Jhn. 14:6), therefore there is no other way. by accepting and believing Jesus the person can have personal relationship with God. it is all about between the person and God. But there is factor that the church or any religious organization that can help to the growth of the person's relationship to God. they are a channel where the person learn to step higher in the faith. also,a place that the person is edify and fire will continue in keeping the relationship deeper in Him.
It is really true that the church is not required for a person to have a personal relationship with God. We even know that church can't save a person just like the example of one of the thieves beside Jesus at the cross. The church truly is not required but once we have a relationship with God we are commanded to worship God together, to strengthen each other's faith, and also to correct each other, these can be found in the church. Because the church is the fellowship of the people who have personal relationship with God.
I do believe that we don't have to have a building in order to learn that there is God and how powerful he is. People learn out of there minds that there is a divine being even if there is no building .But one thing that i consider here is that the church can strengthens the new believers, i believe in the sayings that says "no man is an island" we need someone who will help us and who will strenghtens us. We cannot stand of our own so we need someone who can make us strong. I agree that man can know God and have a relationship with him, but i dont agree that we dont need someone to help us strenghten. Even the great man of God in the Bible need encouragement of each other so if we say that we dont need someone "maayu pa d i ta sa mga tao sa Ginoo sauna na panahun?" Hehe so now i will stand that we need someone.
For me, a person can have a relationship with God that does not require any organization nor government of the church because a relationship with God is personal. The organization and the church are there to help a person as he grows in his relationship with God but when it comes to personal, a person can call the name of the Lord especially when situation comes in life that the last thing that comes into his mind is to call on God. That particular moment, God is speaking to him and wants that person to rely on God the situation he has into because only He can help us in our trials and problems in life. By calling on God, a person will be able to realize that God is the source of everything and the Helper in times of trouble. Surely, God uses situations and events in life that would lead a person to come into his senses to call on God for help. From that moment, a person can have a personal relationship with God by always calling Him whenever that person asks or need something because he knows that God would answer him, if not all. The organization and the church also is a big help to a person when he wants to be involve in the ministry for God. It helps him grow more deeply in his relationship to God by teaching and training that person the techniques and ways. These two also are used by God to help a person in counseling and advice to strengthen the life of a person and to become more mature for God. By having a personal relationship with God also means that a person is living the way God wants him to be. Following the commands of God is a perfect example of showing and telling to other people, “I believe in God”.
ReplyDeletepersonal relationship to God is an interaction between of man to God. it was destroyed because of sin, thus not in man can make it restore again. so, God initiating it, one can have the relationship again back to God. i like the idea presented by the author of this statements.
DeleteAmen to this. I agree to the idea that the church are there to help strengthen our relationship to God. The relationship itself is a personal one. It one's person decision in a particular event in his life that he choose to have a relationship to God.
DeleteYes, i strongly agree to this. That God is the cause for a man to have relationship with Him and the church really helps in assisting their spiritual growth as they walk in their faith. It is one of its purposes, to build up and strengthen those who have faith in Christ.
DeleteOur relationship to God is personal, its true! But as we go on with our relationship and battle in life with Him we also need someone to lean on to, partners,and companions who can give us help and follow-ups. We also need people to redirect us whenever we fail keep or hold to something we valued the most especially our relationship to God. That is why we really need to give value to the church organizations and leaders.
DeleteThis statement is somewhat an irony because it talks about having a relationship with God without the instrument of God. We are in the period of church age. The church has been given the great commission to disciple all nations with the completed Word of God as the sole authority for belif and conduct. This means the church is now the channel of God’s blessing of salvation that is the start of a relationship with God (Rom.5:1). In other words, the church bears the good news of Christ. A church can a group of believers or a single believer and both description is part of the church organization. And so, people who are lost need to hear the message of salvation from the people who have the Word of God and experience it (Rom. 14:14-15). But of course, God’s way is revealed in the Bible, which has opened the heart the hearts of many to accept the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. One thing is clear though, that no one can have a relationship with God w/o the Bible and Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteyes, i also believe that kui, but have you ever in mind that God is also communicating without human instrument---the Holy Spirit, most of all Jesus Heb 4:14-16?
DeleteLet us not forget that man can have a relationship with God through special revelation and that means the Written Word and Incarnate Word. That is my point Ming :).... Mystics had different way in mind when they say that man can have a relationship with God w/o the church. There are not talking about the Bible and for that they are wrong.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRelationship to God is not based on human effort but rather based on what Jesus has done for us; upon our faith to Jesus we can have relationship with God, describe as personal. It’s a kind of relationship between a person and God alone, not based on the legality imposed by the organization and governance of the church such as the sacraments but rather of faith. I don’t mean to say that Godly commanded style of organization and governance such as offices (pastor and deacon) and ordinances (baptism and the Lord’s Supper) is to disregard. However the force execution for merit to relationship to God of these organization and governance as a requirement for a person is not a means to relationship to God. It is man’s willingness as he responses positively to the grace of God through the person of Christ that give him the restoration of relationship to God because of what Christ has done has he paid our sins on the cross.
ReplyDeleteyes i agree with you plakz, human cannot understand the Lord if it is not God's willing to let him know his power and love. it is God's effort that we can know the truth and open our mind in order that we will be save. by believing the lord Jesus Christ.
DeleteHebrews 4:14-16
ReplyDeleteTherefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through heavens, Jesus the Son of God. For we do not have the a high priest who is not unable to sympathize with our weakness, but the one who was tempted in every way—yet without sin . Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
This verse tells that we can always come to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore, there is no need for other human mediator to be in the presence of God or in the relationship with God.However, in this perfect world God revealed His being order that man may experience peace. If there is no organization there would be a great chaos in the entire world.
This organization is to unite people to people not people with God. Of course, Jesus is not out of the picture, He is enough---it’s given. But what I mean is that organization or government is the human solution guided by God’s wisdom that in humility we avoid competition over an authority. There must be an ordained authorized person who will take lead of everybody. I don’t think God will be glad to see His people fighting with each other. It is not worshiping Him anymore. Thus, in the beginning he gave Moses as the leader of Israelite even though God was there. It is because He knew that it was necessary, not that He wasn't enough but people were yet foolish to figure it out.
For me, I believe that a relationship with God is a personal matter. It is between you and God. it does not require the organization nor the government of the church. it is your decision to have God. The church may introduce and strengthen your relationship of God but it is personal. The church has no control on your relationship to God but they can help you on strengthen your relationship with Him. If i were to illustrate, Its just like a boy courting a girl. If the boy wanted to have a personal relationship with the girl, he will call on to the girl. He will not call his friends or an organization just to have a personal relationship with her. He will personally court the girl so that he will have a personal relationship. The friends and the group will be just there to help you to strengthen your relationship.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Deleteyes, I agree with you Nolan. having a personal relationship with God is a personal decision and the church also has a specific role in the life of someone who have a personal relationship with God. The church is there to help strengthen, uphold and encourage a believer. Going to a particular church doesn't make a person Christian but the church can help in the spiritual growth of a person after he received Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior.
DeleteHaving a personal relationship with God is an individual experience. To belong to a particular church can't make a person be connected to God or have a personal relationship with Him. God has provided only one way for a person to be saved and that is by having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and salvation is only by grace through faith alone. On other hand, the church is there to help the person in his spiritual growth and for continuous guidance and accountabilty.
ReplyDeleteYou're right Soy because when it comes to relationship with God, we need to go back to the fundamentals of faith which is by Jesus Christ. It's very deceptive idea that man can have a relationship with God through secret wisdom or God's revelation by the Mystics because He has given us His divine revelation, which teaches us the right doctrine.
DeleteIndeed there is no other way for a person to have a personal relationship with God aside form believing in the Lord JEsus Christ. Any organization or church is only God's instrument to nurture His people. Even without being involve in a church, a person can still experience being in a relationship with God.
DeleteRelationship between God and man was made possible through Jesus Christ. He is the reason why the relationship was restored. Without Him the relationship to God is impossible. Meaning, apart from Jesus Christ there will be no restoration of relationship. For mystics they believe that, “Man can have a relationship with God that does not require the organization nor government of the church.” There are three things that I wanted to say about their statement.
ReplyDeleteFirst, Man cannot have his relationship back with his own strength. No matter how much a person tries to restore himself to God he will always end up being failure. Why? Because Man is deprave. He is dead. The bible talks about it in Ephesians 2:1, “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins ” and Romans 3:10-12, “as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.” All human fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).
Second, Man cannot have his relation without Christ as a requirement for the sin. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all. Even without the organization and the government of the Church cannot make him have his relationship back to Christ. It is by Christ we can have the restoration of the relationship. The organization and the church are there to help a person not as means for salvation. It is their to strengthen the believer as well as to help him grow.
Lastly, Man can have his relationship be restored when He accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved. There is only one God, and Christ Jesus is the only one who can bring us to God (1 Timothy 2:5). Even in his own land and among his own people, the Jews, he was not accepted. Only a few would welcome and receive him. But to all who received him, he gave the right to become children of God. All they needed to do was to trust him to save them. All those who believe this are reborn!—not a physical rebirth resulting from human passion or plan—but from the will of God. There is no other way to have our relationship being restored.
Amen to that ptr alvin that relationship to God was made possible of what Jesus had done on the cross. That is to say a person can only have a personal relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ. By accepting Christ in his life, a relationship with Him comes immediately as one desires earnestly to long for a relationship with God each and everyday.
Deletein my own opinion, relationship with God does not require any organization or government of the church because relationship with God is personal. This means that God calls men to have a relationship with Him and it depends to man if he will respond positively or not. it dpends to a man if he will receive and believe the grace of God. Just like Abraham, he was able to make a relationship with God when he believe and obey Him. Moses able to know God when He appeared in a bush. David became a great king and known to be the "man after God's own heart" because of his very distnct and intimate relationship with God. Paul became a great apostle to the Gentles because God revealed Himself to him. These are all because of God and not by church's organization and government. It is God whom sent Jesus Christ in the world so that man will have a Savior and relationship with Him and not the church's organization and government. It is all alone because of God.
ReplyDeleteTo have a relationship with God has only one requirement,and that is for a person to put his faith in Jesus, the Son of God; nothing more, nothing less. The church and any organizations will not contribute to a person for him to have a relationship with God. It's only between the person himself and God. Therefore even without a church, a person can still experience or have an intimate relationship with God. It's not really that necessary but still it is important that a person has a church or an organization if he believes in God because those will what would help the person to grow in God. Each person's goal is to be Christlike and one way of achieving that goal is to be in a group of people who can encourage and help you grow in your spiritual walk with God. God uses people for his people to be come the person that He wants them to be. Again, church or any organization is not a requirement to have a personal relationship with God, but it is important.
ReplyDeleteIt is really true that a person who already have relationship with God should grow in his or her spiritual life and that where church comes in. That's why mystecism belief about this is partly true but then their point that church is unnecessary is not true because church is neccesary as we grow in the Lord.
DeleteRelationship to God is an individual duty and it does not necessarily require the intervention of another person or other people. It is between a person and God. God is the One who actually directs one person's life and on one else. But this does not mean the church organization is of no use and not important anymore. Its ( church organization or church leaders ) are still very important because they have a very important task to perform in the church. They are those people who formulate and regulate the church's rules and standards and even set goals of the church. That is why even our relationship to God is intimate and our very personal encounter with God we cannot deny the importance of church organization.We are actually very exposed to this in our respective churches.
ReplyDeleteyes! the church are just a channel for any person who have relationship with God to Grow more deeper in the knowledge of Him. it is a way for acquainting with fellow believers that would lift up and help the person in the same faith.
ReplyDeleteJesus said " I am the way...to the Father" (Jhn. 14:6), therefore there is no other way. by accepting and believing Jesus the person can have personal relationship with God. it is all about between the person and God. But there is factor that the church or any religious organization that can help to the growth of the person's relationship to God. they are a channel where the person learn to step higher in the faith. also,a place that the person is edify and fire will continue in keeping the relationship deeper in Him.
ReplyDeleteIt is really true that the church is not required for a person to have a personal relationship with God. We even know that church can't save a person just like the example of one of the thieves beside Jesus at the cross. The church truly is not required but once we have a relationship with God we are commanded to worship God together, to strengthen each other's faith, and also to correct each other, these can be found in the church. Because the church is the fellowship of the people who have personal relationship with God.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that we don't have to have a building in order to learn that there is God and how powerful he is. People learn out of there minds that there is a divine being even if there is no building .But one thing that i consider here is that the church can strengthens the new believers, i believe in the sayings that says "no man is an island" we need someone who will help us and who will strenghtens us. We cannot stand of our own so we need someone who can make us strong. I agree that man can know God and have a relationship with him, but i dont agree that we dont need someone to help us strenghten. Even the great man of God in the Bible need encouragement of each other so if we say that we dont need someone "maayu pa d i ta sa mga tao sa Ginoo sauna na panahun?" Hehe so now i will stand that we need someone.
ReplyDelete