We have learned from last week about the beginning of the so-called separation of church and state. Donatus, not agreeing with how the Catholic church at that time was being run by the bishops, thought it wise to leave the church and start his own church. He tried many times to convince the Catholic church to agree with his teachings but to no avail. Since he couldn't get the support of the church, he then appealed to the government to decide in favor of his new group. Unfortunately, the government under the leadership Emperor Constantine did not grant them such favor. Donatus and his new church did not get the power that they wanted. He then declared that the government should not have anything to do with the church.
So for this week's discussion forum, I want everyone to focus on at least two things:
1. What do you think are the good implications of the separation of church and state?
Do you see a clear and fair division of authority between the two in our current society and time?
2. Donatus declared separation from the government when he did not get the power he wanted. In other words, his decision wasn't based on clear and accepted principles, rather, he based it on his self-gratifying motives. What are the dangers of such kind of decision-making process?
I'm looking forward to reading your smart and thoughtful comments.
In my own idea, one of the good implications of the separation of church
ReplyDeleteand state is that freedom is being practice. The church can do what they
want without bothering the government and the government can do what they
want without bothering the church. In our current society and time, we can
see a clear and fair division of authority between the two. The government
dont bother the church and the church doesnt bother the government.
In my own opinion, the danger of making a decision based on self-gratifying
motives is that it will harm other people. Because this decision is based on
selfishness, it will only give benefits to himself or to his people and will only
give disadvantage to some of the people. Another danger is that this will make
a person more selfish to his decision than before. All his decisions will be
self centered because he is used of it and thus make him unwise because he
thinks he can make it on his own. He will seek more to satisfy his selfish
decision and make him more self centered in decision making.
I agree that one of the good things of the separation of church and state is freedom for both; that the state allows the church to do their religious activities and others but i am just concern of the opposite because this will mean that whatever decisions and laws the government implements that are against the teaching of the Bible, the church doesn't have the right and power to intervene the decision because of its separation that no matter how they protest, the government might not listen to them.
DeleteIn what way does it harm to other people? Yes, i agree to you. This selfishness will result into always wanting to get MORE that the person will never be contented on what he gets out of his decision. The danger of this is that the person will do anything he can (even to the point of hurting other people) just to make sure that he gets what he wants or even be worse if he does not get what he wants.
1. The implication of this separation is accountability. Although church and state intend to cooperate with each other, yet they have to separate in order that each may be accountable with the authority each are being entrusted. Now a days, overlapping power is a common problem of many organization. One might be over responsible and others are left with unspoken credibility. One might be overloaded and others are left nothing to do, thinking of himself useless. Thus, it causes some chaos. Separation might not guarantee absolute peace but it may lessen disparities.
DeleteUnlike before, it was a sigh in the country that there is now separation between state and church. As I observe, the government has given different religions privileges concerning their promotions. There are also some moral bills that have been ratified without the approval of the Roman Catholic church, and in fact they were against it. It means that government independently fulfilling its duty which gave the church the understanding about their accountability.I think its fair.
2. The danger of that kind of separation is the arising of false teaching. Since Donatus made his decision out of his selfishness we can be sure that such basis would desire to put down others to show that he is the truth. The usual practice of someone who opposes is to point out others wrong so people would not believe the person who was opposed. Some teachings are being distorted because the wrong motive is there ready to promote selfish ambition and bring people to confusion..
Deleteyeah your right that each must not overlap with each other but it's nice seeing both supports each other and help build each other up.
DeleteFor me the good implications of separation of church and state is their chances to freely make a difference (good) for the society . One did not overpower the other one but both worked for the good of their society in different ways. This will also help the two avoid conflict and misconceptions with rules, laws, beliefs or stands, and principles. Both can freely display what they believe as long as it is for the good of all people and not against the standard laws.
ReplyDeleteDonatus desire is yet a very dangerous one beacuase it was a display of self- centeredness. What he wanted is not for the good of everybody's favor because he wanted to exalt his ownself and be " somebody". Upon commenting here I am reminded Jesus humbleness to His the Father and to other people. The Bible is always reminding us to be himble, serve others even if we are leaders because God knows that human has the tendency to exalt himself towaerds others.
So true! The example of Jesus Christ is for us to follow and humbly seeks HIs will and not our own.
Deleteyes,. that in some angle is true. with regards to your first paragraph, especially, 3rd sentence, that's a point with regards to the separation of state and church for me,. i somehow agree with that. and for your 2nd paragraph, amen, the Lord is whom we should glorify!!
DeleteIt is really true..freedom is the very basic advantage of the separation of church and state. I also like the idea of the authority not overlapping with each other. This is really true, God surely allow this for His perfect plan.
DeleteI mean " humble" not himble :)
ReplyDeleteOne of the good implications of the separation of church and state is that there is freedom especially in the decision-making. For example: During election, the government doesn't have the power to dictate the church whom to vote. Both have the freedom to express themselves. Another good implication is that they have the opportunity to build genuine relationship. They can have the opportunity to minster to one another especially the church to the state. Example: The government leaders might ask the church leaders to become his personal adviser. Lastly, there is peace for both parties.
ReplyDeleteYes, there i fair division between the two.
Self-centeredness has always an end. The danger of making decision out self-gratifying motives is that it will only result to failure, disappointments, and even breaking own self. I always believe that wickedness will not prosper. Our God is a just God and He will always be. He will not allow bad things to rule. Even if the person succeeds, it will only last for a short time. For sure his suffering and the consequences of his bad attitude will last for a long time.
Oppurtunity to minister to one another for me is the best thing the church and state can do. By just thinking of this, I can see a country of persons that are submissive to the government while doing things for God in the church. I can see individuals becoming a better persons because the church and the state has help an invidual become more mature person.
DeleteSelf-centeredness is one of the things an individual can‘t accept he/she has this. When a person says “You are selfish”, the tendency for the other person to do is defense. Why? We have pride, when our pride is hit, we try to justify ourself instead of looking and analyzing of ourselves and humble ourselves to God.
I agree. separation of church and state is beneficial to us. And yes, self-centeredness will destroy an individual and it will cause him to become too focused on himself rather than considering others or admitting that he is wrong. It loses the importance of humbling oneself and a submissive spirit.
DeleteThe government deals with the physical needs of man like food, education, housing, economics, roads, communication and many more while the Church caters the spiritual needs of man in light of the Scripture which motivates man to be a better citizen of the country. The way I see it is a symbiotic relationship for the betterment of human society but reality says otherwise. There is a division of authority between the government and the church but the people in the gov't. is influenced by the church to do what the church wants. Our history tells of this sad fate and unfortunately, it is still happening today.
ReplyDeletePower is one of the many things that can destroy man's character. Donatus was one of the many people who fell in the trap. He seek to impose power and created an environment where he can have power. There are dangers in self-gratifying motives for a man will do anything to achieve power like hatred, steal, lie, envy, covet and even murder. Not only that, he will also do anything to stay in power which are as dangerous as the said actions. "The moment a person crave for power he or she has cross over from selflessness to selfishness" Reinhard Dano
these have good implications, especially first in exercise of there authority. the church can move freely of his own and exercise his own authority. like in financial aspects. since the church is separated from the state, she is not required to give tax to the state.second good thing i see is that, in terms of the exercise of belief. since the church is separated from state, she can freely choose to choose his own belief. but well however, as i see nowadays in our context in the Philippines, maybe in legality, it is true but in reality, it's not. i mean we cannot deny the fact that most of the decisions made by our gov. leaders are greatly influenced by the church. say for example the issue of divorce and annulment. or the toleration of same sex marriage well i'm not saying that its bad bcoz, indeed, im agree with how our country addresses these issue in terms of legal matters but, what i'm saying is the church has influenced the state somehow., but not in all aspects. because of course as for most common people in our country, they define the church as the roman catholic. but actually as the bible says, the church is not about the religion, nor the building but, the refers to people who believed in Christ. there are decisions in the government that the church can't argue, same as decisions in the church that the gov.cannot interfere.
ReplyDeletethe danger is that, basically it could be distractive in the sense that doing such kind of action only focuses on satisfying one's pleasure rooted mainly from the sinful desire that will eventually result to abuse of the exercise of power. with that kind of action one will not think for the good of the many, but rather will only think for the benefit of one's self. that is very distractive bcoz not all beneficial to you, is as well beneficial to others. what rather should one do is to seek what glorifies God. bcos, in return that would benefit to all.
For me, the good implications of the separation of the church and state is first, the church can have all the right to implement what it wants without any heated disagreement with the state for many times the state is somehow oppose to what the church is doing. Second, the state could never manipulate the church and interrupt what they are doing nor could the church could lie in jeopardy for the state can't have the control of it.
ReplyDeleteDonatus self-gratifying desires is very dangerous for it shows selfishness and he is very focused on what he feels rather than considering others. To have that kind of attitude is not good since it is just seeking for self-satisfaction and it could never help the person. The worst thing there is that it could affect others, and it may cause discord and conflicts. All the more that it never honors the Lord for He wants us to think of others first rather than focusing on getting what we want. We have our own opinion, beliefs and point of view but we need to think of it more and more and ask the Lord for wisdom if it is really right and if it glorifies His name.
I sympathize with your ideas soy. This is somehow similar to my idea about having a freedom but your idea is more specific and that is very nice of you.
DeleteYou have a great idea there in the second question and I agree with this. Donatus' decision was a selfish one.
The good implications I see for the separation of church and state are that, one can focus on things that would help move forward without looking or thinking on the other. Why? Because I think God allowed this to happen so that the two can really focus on the different aspects in life. The church focuses more on spiritual things while the state focuses on physical things, the welfare and goodness of the state. In a positive sense, what Donatus did was for me a good thing for the good of the two. Church and state can go hand in hand in helping an individual become a better person. An individual can serve the state well and also could help more in the affairs of the church. For me, I see a clear and fair division of the two. State didn’t interfere in the affairs in the church, likewise the church didn’t the affairs in the state but the church has this so-called “influence” on the decision of the state because sometimes the church gives their idea on a certain topic that the church sees it can’t help an individual become a person. One danger is that, a person can have a rebellious heart. An individual can be a pain for the leaders when a person only thinks of himself, not thinking about the decisions made. Another danger is an invidual can be a selfish person who thinks only for himself. Not minding the welfare of others. Any decision made by others, for a selfish person immediately thinks of himself how can it do good to him. It‘s all about the selfish person. Another danger is an individual does not have a submissive attitude. One should submit to whatever decisions the authority did. The authority might saw something that an individual didn’t. Unsubmissive heart could bring an invidual into his life a mess because anywhere we go, we always have someone has higher authority than us.
ReplyDeleteYes, God allowed it to happened. Even though it was a selfish action of Donatus, we can still see how God used it for the better. God's hand is really working even from the evil schemes of man. Even though we can sometimes asked Him why that dreadful thing happened.
Deleteyes, its true because we know that God is in control of everything. truly both
Deletecan function for the expansion of God's kingdom.
Yahhh...it's very true that God is in control of everything whatever will happen God has a purpose for all of it...
DeleteI agree with you Reymund. GOD willed everything for his own purposes. But human tendencies is sometimes not inlined to what God wanted to happen. We sometimes uses our " influence"for our own good.Selfishness.
Deletethe good implication for the separation of Church and State is the freedom for authority in both division for their own. the church can focus on things for improvements in all matter of the church outside from the permission of the state. In making decision, church is freely to decide what to be practiced, things to prefer. in fact they have different function which somehow dis match in principles that cause miss understanding and become struggle both sides. also, they different demands, because the church is focus on the spiritual aspects of human life yet state is on economic aspect and material needs of human in society.therefore, it is fair for both division to go well further in their own area of responsibilities.
ReplyDeletewhen pride struck a leader all motives will become centered to oneself. it might be sound good to aim something for different but it is dangerous in making yourself above others. sometimes when too much credit yourself as a leader will full you down anyway. I am reminded that in everything we accomplish is not for own glory but for God.
The good implication for this is that both of them have their own boundaries. The church can freely do its own business without the interruption of the government and vice versa. Also, both of them can focus on their own developments and problems. The church can focus on the spirtual growth and morality of humanity so that they would be a good citizen of the community which is the focused of the government. Also, the most important thing, the government cannot touch the money of the church because as we can see and hear now, our government is one of the very corrupt government in the whole world. But in terms on the authority of our government i find it somehow the church can influence their decision making just like on the issue of same sex marriage.
ReplyDeleteNOw about Donatus, what happened to him clearly tells us that having this kind of attitude will lead you to distraction. It will make you blind of what is right, self-centered and even forget that God is the only one true authority. And this kind of attitude will not only affect the person who has it but also the others who is with him or he ruled.
yeah your right that each must not interrupt and each must focus on its development and problem but it's nice that both of them must have collaboration with each other in some ways.
DeleteThe implication of the separation of the state and the church is that both of them can have there own decision on how to lead there every responsibility.I think it is also good because the government can be more focus on the development of government and in every aspect that they need to cover in the government aspect. so also in the church they can be more focus in spiritual aspect of the person and they can be more effective if they have more time in it. for me that is very fair division of authority until right now we can see how the government and church work for the development of the country. i would say it is very holistic
ReplyDeletefor me the danger of making decision in a self-centered way is that they can hurt anybody who will opposed them. also that person will do anything he/she could in order to get what he wanted. our decisions must not be self centered but God-centered so that we will not hurt someone.
i do agree with your statement brother in regards to how both church and state work together for the good of the country. I think that should be the best thing to do, hopefully state may not used the power of church in gaining votes and church may not be opportunist towards the state. Though its already happening.
DeleteThe separation of the church from the state had brought both negative and positive effects. Because the church is now separated from the state, many papers are now required to pass just to ask for license. But becauseof that separation, there is also more freedom for the church. The state can't dectate church anymore. And there would be more growth of churches. Although the government tends to focus more on the state than churches.
ReplyDeleteThat kind of desicion making is really unwise. First it is selfish, and God hates selfishness, so that kind of decision making really don't bring glory to God. This kind of decision making also will eat you up, after you realize that the decision is wrong, it is not that easy to change, and mostly can't be changed anymore. So we must always ask God to help us be decisive.
i do agree with you but always remember that the church still in the umbrella of the government yet there restrictions. Regarding with legalities, Yes it's true that supposed we may not have the hard time in making approval but even though church is not separated still it may have legal procedure because government plays on the legalities of things and that is just one of those. hope this can help...
DeleteYahhh nice idea.. I agree with you miss Semilliano that if the person is very focus on his side and not the side of others ( self-centeredness) it will cause very big problem. As Donatus decision to separate the church and the state it is clear that he did it for his own benefit and that attitude will not be change. In leading the church there must be a big possibility that he will also propose a wrong teaching that can satisfy his wants.
ReplyDeletefor me i find it good that the church and state had been separated because each has its own focus though its possible that the church and state can work together yet it depends upon the people or person who is in charge in each institution. I find it so good also that it had been separated because each can have their own way of governance. Because of that each can have freedom in making their decision, styles of governance, freedom on what to believe, and practices without interruption with one another. In terms of function each has its own function. Church focuses on spiritual side while the government focuses on basic needs or physical needs. Yet all must agree with one another church has freedom but not against the law and the state too must not have the control over the church system. But for me its nice seeing the both working together.
ReplyDeleteIn relation to how Donatus decide was not that good because it's out of selfish thing. And the bad thing about making such decision that is self centered it may create problem or conflict. It may not happen at that very moment (though some happen right away) yet in the long run we may see its effect. Let us remember that when we started wrong then we end it wrong. Though sometimes God allows it to happen for a purpose and sometimes He works that bad decision or even bad events to good. It's hard to understand yet God wants you to trust instead of understanding situations. May this be a reminder to all to make decisions that is God centered rather to self.
Nice discussion group guys!
ReplyDelete